How To Pick A Turbo-for newbs-

Discussion in 'Engine/ Performance' started by cobalt123, Sep 27, 2010.

  1. cobalt123

    cobalt123 Platinum Member

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    How To Choose A Turbo



    It’s no longer necessary to use black magic or cast a voodoo spell to choose the right turbocharger. Turbonetics makes it easy! Each family of turbochargers features Turbonetics Top Performers based on the displacement and power. While there are many other variables to consider, these will certainly get you started. We have over 125 years of forced induction sales and engineering expertise in our building to help you select the best possible combination of turbochargers and intercoolers. Feel free to contact Turbonetics and or any of our distributors, if you have questions. The dealer locator feature is available online at the top right hand corner of the site.



    HERE ARE SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:



    POWER:

    • Think in horsepower not boost.

    • Boost is just a number that you will have to run on your engine to make a certain horsepower.

    • How much power do you want to make? Be realistic, the more accurate that you are, the better tuned your forced induction system will be.

    • Can your vehicle (not just the engine, but the entire setup) handle such power?

    • Remember the turbocharger is generally not the weakest link.

    •Forged pistons, connecting rods, head studs, etc.

    • “As much as possible” is not a goal.



    INTENDED USAGE:

    • What are you using the vehicle for?

    • Race or street use?

    • The way that you will be using the vehicle dramatically changes the sizing of the turbocharger and intercooler needs.

    • Your choice of transmission type and gearing will greatly affect the performance and characteristics of the turbocharger, keep this in mind.



    PACKAGING:

    • Will the turbocharger(s) fit in your vehicles space constraints? Consider using differently sized compressor housings to more easily fit a given location.



    REMEMBER TO CHOOSE WISELY:

    Most street/autocross/drift enthusiasts will prefer a smaller turbocharger due to its fast response. A turbo system equipped with a smaller turbocharger is generally considered more fun to drive. The tradeoff is the final power output of the setup. On another note, dedicated track cars are aimed for peak power over boost response. There’s no doubt track cars spend more time in the upper RPM than average street cars. So, a small sacrifice in boost response is offset by the huge power potential. Larger frame turbochargers are preferred by track car owners due to their maximum power capacity. For most street applications the best solution for selecting turbine wheels and turbine housings, is to choose the smallest wheel diameter available that meets the horsepower level wanted.



    It is also important to remember that response/spool-up time is greatly affected by turbine wheel diameter and turbine housing A/R. The A/R sizing can be used as a tool to fine tune the response range in the RPM band. The smaller the A/R, the faster the turbocharger will be able to spool up from the increase in exhaust gas velocity entering the turbine housing. Backpressure has become a major tuning issue associated with high performance turbocharged engines and the turbine wheel and turbine housing A/R are both critical to maximizing the performance of the turbo system. Backpressure is the pressure that the exhaust gas generates trying to enter into the turbine housing inlet. If backpressure becomes too great (a 2:1 ratio), the exhaust gases can not escape the cylinder head and can possibly cause major tuning, performance and durability issues. It is important to try to keep the backpressure to boost pressure ratio as low as possible and should be no greater than 1.5:1 for best performance (Example: 15 psi of boost to 22.5 psi of backpressure).


    http://www.turboneticsinc.com/sites/default/files/HowToChooseATurbo.pdf
    http://www.turboneticsinc.com/sites/default/files/Turbo Matrix .pdf

    Compressor Maps

    Turbocharger systems are a complex combination of many different parts. From the turbo itself and intercooler to the fuel management system and the quality of the engine’s internal components, a vehicle must have many different things just in the right order to run properly.



    One of the most important aspects to a well designed turbo system is choosing the right compressor and turbine wheel correctly the first time. When the right wheels are selected you can be confident that the turbocharger is going to perform exactly as it should without complications from surging, excessive lag, or overspeeding. There are a few key mathematical formulas and general information points that you should be familiar with before choosing your wheels.



    This section is intended to provide general turbocharger sizing information, not specific turbocharger-vehicle-engine solutions. Typical turbocharger matches are the result of engine dynamometer testing and installed vehicle performance evaluation. Often, compromises must be made to arrive at a match that yields satisfactory response and power.



    Actual power produced by any gasoline-fueled engine is a function of how much air flows through the cylinder head and engine itself, regardless of whether it is naturally aspirated, supercharged or turbocharged. The best rule to gauge how much airflow an engine will need to make a certain amount of power is to use a factor of 10. This is based upon the rule that it generally takes 1 lb. of air to make 10 HP. Thus, if an engine makes 500 HP then it flows 50 lbs. of air per minute. It is also important to note that cubic feet per minute or cfm, is not a valid value to use in measuring air for turbochargers. Once a turbocharger has compressed air, the air has density. This density gives the air weight and must be measured in lbs./minute. The conversion formula from cfm to lbs./min. is to multiply or divide by 0.0691 depending upon the conversion direction. For example 500 HP or 50 lbs./min equals 723.59 cfm (50 / 0.0691) and 723.59 cfm equals 50 lbs./min. (723.59 x 0.0691). Keep this conversion in mind when selecting a compressor wheel, as this is a key point in selecting a compressor wheel for a turbocharger.



    After the HP is converted to airflow in lbs./min., a compressor wheel selection can be made by matching the air flow plotted on the compressor map,with the associated pressure ratio. Pressure ratio is defined as absolute compressor discharge pressure P2, divided by the absolute inlet (ambient) pressure. For example: (boost pressure in psi + ambient pressure in psi; ie. 15 psi of boost + 14.7 psi (1 atmosphere) / 14.7 (1 atmosphere) = 2.02 pressure ratio. The pressure ratio, shown as P2/P1, is located on the left hand vertical axis of the compressor map. Select a compressor map where the air flow and the pressure ratio intersect at a flow rate where the plotted efficiency is no less than 65%-70% for a street application. There will probably be more than one compressor which will satisfy your requirements – in this case, pick the compressor which has the LOWEST surge air flow limit at the selected pressure ratio – this will provide the widest range of performance at the boost pressure your vehicle will be operating at.







    Turbine selection must also be considered for a successful turbocharger match. Most turbochargers described in this catalog are designed for use with an external wastegate or other device to bleed off excess exhaust energy when a desired boost is attained. TURBONETICS Inc. offers four different external gates matched for various HP outputs.



    Turbine selection is a variable based on intended use, weight, and desired response. Turbine power available to drive the compressor wheel can vary in two ways: 1) The area to radius (A/R) ratio of the turbine housing can be changed to alter turbine inlet pressure; and 2) The turbine wheel trim can be specified to affect an increase or decrease in turbine pressure for a given turbine housing A/R (see A/R Ratios & How To Choose A Turbocharger for determining the proper A/R ratios).





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    T04E60.gif 9.84 KB
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    .

    ---------- Post added at 07:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 PM ----------

    A/R Ratios

    What you need to know:


    As the volume decreases in the volute of the housing, the exhaust gas is able to maintain velocity and a high energy level thus increasing turbine wheel speed. A small turbine housing A/R can also be a choke point with too small a size limiting the efficiency of the system by increasing backpressure and preventing total horsepower capability.



    If the boost pressure to backpressure remains equal (1:1) the engine essentially thinks it is naturally aspirated. The boost pressure can continue to be turned up higher and higher until the backpressure climbs too high (above 1.75-2.0:1) or the strength limitations of the engines components are reached. Some backpressure can be a good thing for street/driving use as the pressure differential helps with turbine wheel speed and transient boost response. For racing applications it is critical to maximize the turbine housing as much as possible to keep backpressure low and efficiency high while still providing the necessary response time. There are no written rules to sizing turbine housings and as such professional recommendations and testing are often the best way to start.
     
  2. cobalt123

    cobalt123 Platinum Member

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    Identify Your Turbo

    There are several ways of finding out what Turbonetics turbocharger it is:

    Easiest

    - With a description on the box, invoice or shipping document

    Easier

    - With a Turbonetics part number (this is not a serial #)
    - With a serial number (located on the anodized backplate)

    Easy

    - Measuring various components of the turbocharger; such as the compressor wheel/housing and turbine wheel/housing.

    First and foremost, you should look at the turbocharger and see if it is indeed, a genuine Turbonetics turbocharger. You would be surprised to know how many ?Um?I THINK it?s a Turbonetics unit? calls we get.

    All Turbonetics units feature:

    - Polished compressor housing w/ Turbonetics logo engraved
    - Anodized gold, blue, red backplate
    - Various "T " stamping on cast parts

    With a new purchase, you should be able to note the P/N and description listed on the shipment. Also, you can consult with your Turbonetics dealer you have purchased the unit from. Please note that Turbonetics turbochargers do not have a P/N listed on the unit. You may notice a 5-digit number tag on the backplate ? this is the serial number. Most serial numbers greater than T-20000 can be deciphered through the Turbonetics Owners Club and Turbonetics. If your unit is too old or does not come up in the database, you will have to measure various components to find out what it is.

    Look for obvious things first, like the A/R on the turbine housing or whether the unit features a V-band connection or a flange discharge. A/R is usually listed right on the casting. It can be engraved on the outside or in the scroll. Having a V-band discharge on the turbine housing will tell you that it?s a T4 setup. All T3-style turbine housings will feature either the 4-bolt discharge, or the more popular 5-bolt discharge. But NO V-BAND!!! By looking at the size of the compressor housing, you will be able to find out what "family" of turbocharger it is (i.e. T-series, 60-series, T04E, T04B, etc). Use the following information to see where your unit fits in:

    T-series/HP-series
    4" inlet
    2.5" outlet

    60-series (smaller than T/HP-series)
    4" inlet
    2.5" outlet

    TO4E
    3" inlet (some in 2.75")
    2.0" outlet

    TO4B
    2.75" inlet
    2.00" outlet

    There are 2 diameters you have to measure on the compressor & turbine wheel major and minor. This task is to be completed with a precise measuring tool like a measuring caliper. No rulers or eye-balling! What am I measuring again? Please see below.



    It's a little bit harder with a turbine wheel, but it's the same idea. After you get a successful measurement, grab yourself a nice beverage of your choice and look through wheel sizing on Turbonetics catalog. I believe Rob has scanned the entire catalog. What a soldier. You should be able to find the file on this forum. Refer to pages 44-48. You can also view the catalog at Turbonetics Digital Catalog

    How do I know if this is a ball bearing unit?

    I get asked this all the time. It?s a bit tedious but you can tell by looking up the oil drain hole. Removing the oil drain flange/gasket/fitting should make this easier. Assuming it's clean "up there", you should be able to see shiny ceramic outer race on the compressor side. No shine, no ball bearing.



    Let me RESPECTFULLY say this first. Trying to identify your turbo after you have purchased it is like buying shoes that you dont know what size they are and hoping they fit when you get them. No matter how good of a deal they are if they dont fit it isnt a good deal.

    Here is a quick reference guide with compressor and turbine wheel measurements:

    T3 Compressor Wheels
    Inducer dia. Major dia.
    35 trim 1.396 2.367
    40 trim 1.484 2.367
    45 trim 1.595 2.367
    50 trim 1.674 2.367
    55 trim 1.760 2.367
    60 trim 1.830 2.367
    Super 60 trim 1.900 2.367

    TO4B Compressor Wheels
    Inducer dia. Major dia.
    Super-S 1.904 3.00
    Super-V 2.180 3.00
    Super-H 2.300 3.00

    TO4E Compressor Wheels
    Inducer dia. Major dia.
    40 trim 1.870 3.00
    46 trim 2.003 3.00
    50 trim 2.122 3.00
    54 trim 2.168 3.00
    57 trim 2.227 3.00
    60 trim 2.285 3.00

    TO4E Super Compressor Wheels
    same as above except the major is 3.20


    60 Series Compressor Wheels
    Inducer dia. Major dia.
    60-1 HI-FI 2.324 3.00
    60-1 2.324 3.00
    HP-61 2.418 3.228
    62-1 2.441 3.00


    T-Series Compressor Wheels
    Inducer dia. Major dia.
    HP-58 2.293 3.304
    HP-61 2.418 3.228
    HP-66 2.580 3.584
    HP-70 2.733 4.030
    HP-72 2.840 4.030
    HP-76 2.941 4.030
    HP-78 3.070 4.030


    Turbine Wheels
    Exducer dia Major dia
    F1-49 1.929 2.320
    F1-54 2.126 2.555
    F1-57 2.244 2.555
    F1-62 2.441 2.795
    F1-65 2.559 2.920
    F1-68 2.677 3.111



    Another common question we get is how do I tell if I have the new F1 style turbine wheel. Please see the pictures below. The F1 turbine wheel has a taller tip height and is the wheel to the right in each picture.






    Lastly when measuring you wheels please be sure to use a micrometer. You CANT get a accurate measurement by using a ruler or tape measure.


    Tweet this Post! #2 (permalink) 12-12-2007, 01:07 PM
    Robert
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Excellent post Steve. The Turbonetics 2007 catalog can be found at this link on the Owners Club:

    http://www.turboneticsownersclub.com...opic.php?t=331


    Tweet this Post! #3 (permalink) 12-13-2007, 04:31 AM
    r.j-lo
    Turbonetics Enthusiast Join Date: May 2007
    Posts: 64




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    Can you tell me about this unit?
    This is whats on the box....

    T3_T4E BB-60-D-D-S
    T3_T4E BB-60-D-D-S5 4BOLO_63

    I think I kinda have the code cracked a little bit but what the turbo decription for dummies? lol
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    Tweet this Post! #4 (permalink) 12-13-2007, 08:42 AM
    Robert
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by r.j-lo
    Can you tell me about this unit?
    This is whats on the box....

    T3_T4E BB-60-D-D-S
    T3_T4E BB-60-D-D-S5 4BOLO_63

    I think I kinda have the code cracked a little bit but what the turbo decription for dummies? lol

    I can tell you most of it or try to...

    T3/T4 hyrbird Ceramic Ball Bearing 60 series compressor wheel Dynamic Seal Dry Bearing (oil cooled only) Stage 5 turbine the 4 BOLO_63 I'm not so sure about although I know .63 is the A/R of the turbine housing.

    Edit: Just heard from the man behind the man behind the man at Turbonetics. 4BOLO means a 4 bolt discharge on the turbine housing.


    Tweet this Post! #5 (permalink) 02-05-2008, 09:13 AM
    Ed 718
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Correct the 4 bolt T3 housings come in 48 and 63 A/R.
    __________________
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    Tweet this Post! #6 (permalink) 02-08-2008, 02:55 PM
    evilgoat
    Newbie Join Date: Feb 2008
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    hi i happen to have a srt4 runnning a turbonetic turbo T-23231 and id like to know what kind of turbo it is thanks.
    __________________
    srt4 + Big turbo


    Tweet this Post! #7 (permalink) 07-07-2008, 04:39 PM
    bd performance
    Newbie Join Date: Jul 2008
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    Quote:
    All Turbonetics units feature:

    - Polished compressor housing w/ ?Turbonetics? logo engraved
    - Anodized gold, blue, red backplate
    - Various ?T? stamping on cast parts

    So, if the compressor backplate is not anodized, I definitely do not have a Turbonetics turbo here?

    It has Turbonetics engraved on the compressor cover and a "T" on the turbine housing but no "T" on the CHRA and has a ribbed, bare cast compressor backplate. It is a T3 turbo with a 51mm compressor inducer, a 75mm exducer and a .63 turbine housing.

    The car I have here was worked on in a very shady shop so, I'm trying to figure out if this smokey turbo has a warranty and if so, with whom. The car owner requested a Turbonetics turbo but it doesn't appear that is what he got from them?

    Thanks in advance for your help.


    Tweet this Post! #8 (permalink) 07-07-2008, 10:30 PM
    Robert
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bd performance
    Quote:
    All Turbonetics units feature:

    - Polished compressor housing w/ ?Turbonetics? logo engraved
    - Anodized gold, blue, red backplate
    - Various ?T? stamping on cast parts

    So, if the compressor backplate is not anodized, I definitely do not have a Turbonetics turbo here?

    It has Turbonetics engraved on the compressor cover and a "T" on the turbine housing but no "T" on the CHRA and has a ribbed, bare cast compressor backplate. It is a T3 turbo with a 51mm compressor inducer, a 75mm exducer and a .63 turbine housing.

    The car I have here was worked on in a very shady shop so, I'm trying to figure out if this smokey turbo has a warranty and if so, with whom. The car owner requested a Turbonetics turbo but it doesn't appear that is what he got from them?

    Thanks in advance for your help.

    If it has a ribbed compressor backplate it is not likely a Turbonetics turbo. While a very few number of turbos shipped without an anodized backplate the backplate itself was still polished smooth and would have had a Turbonetics serial number sticker with a serial number starting with T-XXXXXX


    Tweet this Post! #9 (permalink) 06-03-2009, 02:04 PM
    englishtom1596
    Newbie Join Date: Jun 2009
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    ok i have a turbonetic's turbo with T-15911 written on it. i contacted turbonetic's and they told me their records didn't go this far back and sent me here. don't know if you can help me? its apparently a 50trim?
    thanks


    Tweet this Post! #10 (permalink) 06-03-2009, 09:16 PM
    Robert
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  3. YouDriver

    YouDriver Full Access Member

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    Really good thread for beginners Dude, thanks for posting!
     
  4. cobalt123

    cobalt123 Platinum Member

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    yup,
     
  5. RedDead

    RedDead Full Access Member

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    very nice
     
  6. cobalt123

    cobalt123 Platinum Member

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    thanks
     
  7. cobalt123

    cobalt123 Platinum Member

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    thanks ive moved on since then
     

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