Fuel Injector ratiing - E85

[roosterk0031]

I'm wanting to install larger capacity fuel injectors in my 09 2.2 xfe so I can run E85 without getting a CEL. Right now I can go to about E50 till it lights up.

The Flex fuel kits on the market just add a 2nd pulse after the primary pulse to add 20% or more fuel. I think 15-20% larger injectors would do the same.

Anybody know what the rating is of the stock injectors and a recommendation of some I could try.

 

[YelloEye]

You can try the stock ones out of an LSJ, 60s, or 80s. I don't know what they are in an xfe. Are you getting a CEL for over fueling or because the AFR is wrong? The car is going to try for 14.7 regardless of what injector you use, E85 wants 9.7 so you're going to need tuning to adjust that target AFR.

 

[roosterk0031]

Won't the car just go for stoich regardless of fuel blend?

Been blending for years in multiple non-FFV cars with out issue till over E50 then the CEL comes on, couple gallons of regular turns it back off. Talking with other doing the same at some point the long term trim get to the +20% or so it trips the light but car really isn't lean. I should figure out how to see LTFT with the scanguage II I have. One guy went from 22 to 30 lbs with a jeep 3.6v6 I think, but he doesn't think he will be able to run E10 without getting a CEL, that's why I don't want to go the full 30% of the BTU difference.

I know it won't be optimized for E85 without tuning just seems like a easy way to run E85 as it's about $1 cheaper and avoid blending at the pump. The mpg with blend doesn't drop as much as energy content/math says it should. During the summer can still get 37 mpg with about a E50 blend(43 mpg with E10 during the summer).

Found one place say current injectors are 25 lb/hr, I also have 2010 Impala 3.5 FFV it has 27 lbs so 6% larger, they might do the trick. From E50 to E85 is about 10% less BTUs/gallon so it's pretty close.

Wiki says the LE8 in the HHR is just a flex version of my LAP, so I'm thinking those injectors should do the trick, but I'd like to know how much larger(if any) they are, same injectors are used in the LE9 (2.4 FFV of 2010+ Malibu).

Don't know what you are referring to 60 or 80? The LJS probably have plenty of capacity, but might be too big.

Edit: Found 60 & 80 lb/hr injectors for the LJS on ebay, I think they'd give me a CEL for going to far the other way.

5.3v8 FFV has 30 lb/hr might be OK if a easy swap.

 

[YelloEye]

You've obviously been doing your research. I hadn't thought about how the car views AFR as just stoich, you're probably right about that.

If you pickup an OBDII to Bluetooth adapter and Torque for Android you can see LTFT, STFT, and individual cyl injector duty cycles. I'm not sure if your Scangauge can do that.

The HHR injectors are likely identical to your injectors with the exception of ethanol safe o-rings so I doubt they'd help you. A quick Google says L61 injectors are 24# so your LAP is probably the same, stock LSJ are 32#. So that might work.

 

[roosterk0031]

Thanks, I'll be looking for stock LSJ's, 20% increase is perfect.

The SGII has X-guages that I haven't tried to figure out that will do trims, not sure what else. Printed out the direction just haven't tried.

 

[Bass_Waves]

And I just sold my stock injectors too........well then

 

[roosterk0031]

Rethinking the need to even change injectors, I'm a semi old guy, enjoy HP(should have never sold my 01 FZ1) and can feel the difference when it's cold but never push RPMs past 4k. Just filled my/daughter driven 2001 Altima with 10 gallons of E70 and couple gallons of E10, CEL already on due to emissions leak. If it runs/starts fine I'll go to all E70 next fill. I don't think with light loads that my kids drive, they'll be stressing injector capacity, if I/them don't overun injector capacity, the engine CPU if keeping up even if it thinks something is wrong, the car will be fine.

 

[Fuelverine]

Highly recommend going with the 2009+ HHR FFV injectors as a cheap swap in. Should be able to find them for <$100. Check out some of my testing results from the link below.

2007 Chevrolet Cobalt

 

[roosterk0031]

Interesting read, was going to ask for your tune, but doubt if it will work with my 09 5spd because of the VVT it has the 07 doesn't. Stock manual HHR FFV tune and injectors and you think I'm all set. Other than maybe advancing the timing some.

I also have a 2010 LT auto, is there any difference between an Auto/manual tune?

Or just the fuel injectors and enable FFV?

 

[Fuelverine]

Do you have access to an EFILive or HPTuners to reflash your ECU?

I've got copies of 2009/10 manual & automatic HHR FFV tunes as well as a 2009 Cobalt 2.2L regular tune for EFILive.

The auto & manual tune do have several settings that are just slightly different, probably to account for the gearing differences in the transmissions.

I recommend doing the injector swap, enabling FFV and filling out the 5-10 tables that are currently mapped for alcohol/flexible fuel usage with the OEM GM FFV numbers. That will give you your best drivability for all conditions. Then alter the spark table with 4 degrees in all cruise & high load conditions. Leave at 2 degrees in the idle/low g/cyl flow range.

 

[roosterk0031]

Got a nephew checking on price to have a friend tune it. Still questioning the need for different injectors though. My 2010 Impala 3.5v6 FFV only has 25 lb injections, 586cc per cylinder, I have 24 lb at 550cc per cylinder. You changed injectors on your HHR and noted no change in performance/economy. Not a lot of money but why spend $100 when not needed. I'd appreciate it if you could send me the info I need for the 5-10 tables for them to fill in.

No idea where you are but anywhere close to Iowa I'd be willing to drive to you and have tune it if I could make it there and back in a day. I'm in East Central Iowa.

I like the idea of just turning on FFV maps and tweeaing the timing to show nothing else is needed to enable a FFV car.

 

[Fuelverine]

Drop me an email @ [email protected] and I'll send the files I have. Would be the easiest format to give to your tuner. I'll also highlight which ones to pay attention too.

 

[roosterk0031]

I got the HHR FFV maps from Fuelverine and going to enable in the next week or 2.

I have a Scangauge 2 that I finally enabled the Xgages tonight so I can see long term fuel trim, HP, knock retard and air fuel. After enabaling them with about a half tank of E10, made roughly 100 hp at 4,000 rpm, 0 knock retard, 14.6 A/F and 3 on the LTT. After about 15 miles I topped it off with about 8 gallons E85 to make a roughly E55 blend. I've ran E50 without a CEL so didn't expect one tonight and didn't get one.

A/f stayed at 14.6, LTT jumped around alot 5-28 but tended to say around 20, still 0 on knock retard even trying to lug it. I didn't try check the HP, but will in the morning on a uphill 3rd gear pull. Not very accuarte as it changes pretty slowling, but still interesting to see.

I also own a 2010 Cobalt so once tested throughly my 09 XFE, I'll convert it to FFV as well.

Today E85's about 20% cheaper, based on the other FFV's I've owned 20% is the break point for cost per mile. E85 20% cheaper = E85 20% loss in mileage, but hoping that some tweats in timing I can do better.

Edit: blend was a little higher than my guessestimate, did get a CEL this morning LTFT settled in at 28-29.